Friday, July 07, 2006

Connect the dots...

Like a bell clanging in the ear of the Newfangled Catholic, eventually he's just got to hear it. Even Ann Coulter's got it worked out:

"without a fundamental understanding of man's place in the world we risk being lured into, among other things, slavery"
Slavery you say?! But just how is man to realize his fundamental place?


Papa Ratz? Hast thou the answer?

"Whenever Israel falls away from the right worship of God... her freedom, too, collapses"
Now then, isn't it time we all just abandoned the wretched Novus Ordo?


Anonymous said...

are you seriously suggesting people abandon the New Order Mass? Advising anyone to abandon a valid Mass is pretty dangerous, IMHO. Sure, campaign for a reform of the liturgy, but don't tell people to abandon Mass - especially as the Novus Ordo is the only one available to most of us.

J D Carriere said...

That's not danger. Danger is sitting around watching the West collapse while the new Mass turns you into a protestant.

Anyway, see where it says "isn't it time we all"? All. As in the totality of the group. Even the vile portions of the hierarchy are presumably covered.

Anonymous said...

For all of us to abandon the Novus Ordo is NOT the answer. Evangelisation is. there are movements in the Catholic Church - new communities of lay and religious people which are growing fast, producing radical disciples for Christ, who give Him much glory. And they are not 'turning' protestant, but are happily embracing their catholicism and falling in love with Jesus. And they go to Novus Ordo masses...presumably because they love the Eucharist and really want Jesus. Its not te lack of traditional rite masses, or the presence of novus ordo ones. Its the lack or presence of evangelisation that makes the difference. Your solution is not a solution. It does not reach the heart of the problem

J D Carriere said...

Well now, in this post I was not so much proposing any solution as dreaming.

Either way, what can I say? You are wrong.

The Southern Baptists are growing fast and are plenty committed, radical Christians, blah blah too.

One thing they lack, however, is the same thing these new communities of yours lack. Namely internal consistency.

You won't evangelize the world for long with an internally conflicted system and the very concept of a new Mass (without considering even the content of such a Mass) stands against Catholicism.

Submission to the Almighty cannot long survive in an ongoing state of rebellion. A new Mass is rebellion.

james said...

JOhn, if you seriously consider the new Mas to be against Catholicism, and to be a 'rebellion', then you must consider it to be a work of Satan. If so, why do you ever attend such a Mass on a Sunday. Follow through with your convictions, at least. But I must warn - to call such a Mass a 'rebellion' risks blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Be careful.
As for new communities, you are quite wrong there. What do you mean by internal inconsistency? Are you saying that religious orders were always consistent in comparison? I don't knwo what you mean by this statement. But look at the facts, and teh fruits. The Cathlolic Churh is NOT dying in these new communities. Take the Beatitudes communities, Community of St John. Emmanuael, Jerusalem name but a few. People are embracing their catholic faith in radical ways, living sacramental lives of prayer and service in the Church. these new communities that you diss are getting people holy. Surely even you can see that God must be pleased with this. It genuinely really saddens me that you want to oppose this.

JPSonnen said...

niiice, dude! best wishes!

J D Carriere said...

By internal consistency I mean a system that does not adhere to two things that contradict each other.

Clinging to such a thing as a new Mass (again, before even considering the doctrine therein)contradicts a Catholic understanding of liturgy. A house divided and all that.

And as for the new movements, I'm quite certain they do please God. My point, never otherwise, was that they lack the intellectual rigour to win the culture. See earlier remarks on lacking internal consistency.

On the new Mass as revolution, I'm shocked to hear you so shocked! On what did you suppose my opposition rested?

So while I wouldn't go so far as to say the new Mass is anything like a direct demonic production, I do think the devil has been rather well pleased with the whole thing.

James said...

i disagree with your view that teh new communities are not winning the culture. They are reaching more young people and lay people than any other 'movement'm in the Church. Take France, for example. Despiet its overtly pagan modern culture, new movemtns have been springing up in reaction all over France. Catholics are disillusioned by parish life (and you may well blame poor liturgy for that), and are finding radical orthodox catholic formation in the new communities instead. I gather that you have never been to one of these communities. I recommend that you do. I have spent several months in a few of the French ones, and its like stepping into Heaven. Their liturgies are sublime, their faith inspiring and holiness incredible. Never had I been surrrounded by so many saints in one place. And as for intellectual - visit the community of St John in St Jodard, France. They'll blow your mind.
there's plenty to get excited about and rejoice over....I just wish you 'd experience it...

J D Carriere said...

James, I've given a longer reply in the form of a post here.

These new communities are building around a central exercise that undermines and contradicts Catholicism.

Again I say, the very existence of a new Mass is a state of ongoing rebellion to the principles of the Faith.

Read the excerpt I posted. Ratzinger says it best.

James said...

John,. I encourage you to read the Pope's address to the new movements and communities you have so easily swept aside as 'undermining and contradicting catholicism'.

An except from the address (given yesterday):
"Today, the ecclesial movements and new communities are a luminous sign of the beauty of Christ and of the Church, his Bride. You belong to the living structure of the Church. She thanks you for your missionary commitment, for the formative action on behalf of Christian families that you are increasingly developing and for the promotion of vocations to the ministerial priesthood and consecrated life which you nurture among your members. "

Not a whiff of 'undermining Catholicism' there, my friend. Repent!

For the rest, see today's Zenit.

J D Carriere said...

That's the Zenit the L.C. run? Look, after this I'm giving up for a few weeks: It's not the new movements themselves that are generally the problem. It's the fact that they're building around the new Mass which is itself a rebellion.

Jackson said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
james said...

now i'm exremely intrigued about that deleted post. BTW - it wasn't from me - just in case any other reader (ie John's mum) was wondering...